Konstantin Kisin: – The West's Decline is Self-Inflicted (Newspaper Interview)

By Alex Iversen

When I was in Norway at the end of last year for the Holberg Debate, I gave an interview to Alex Iversen. The interview was originally published in the Norwegian newspaper Minerva on January 7, 2025.

https://www.minerva.no/konstantin-kisin-vestens-nedgang-er-selvpafort/463751

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It’s Saturday morning, mid-December, and Bergen feels like a parody of itself. Dark, low-hanging clouds blanket the city, drenching it in relentless rain. An icy wind whips the raindrops sideways, turning the umbrella I have with me into a useless prop. Against better judgment, I’ve left my warm apartment and now stand freezing and wet outside the citys Museum of Applied Arts. I’m here to meet British satirist, author, and YouTube phenomenon Konstantin Kisin.

Kisin is in town to participate in the renowned Holberg Debate, which this year poses the question: “Is the West in Decline?” His opponents the following day are Cynthia Miller-Idriss, an American expert on disinformation, and Yanis Varoufakis, the radical left-wing Greek economist and former politician.

In Norway, Kisin remains largely unknown, but in the UK and among global digital audiences on X and YouTube, he has long been a rising star. In 2018, he and comedian Francis Foster launched the YouTube channel TRIGGERnometry, which has since grown into one of the UK’s largest and most influential alternative media platforms, with around 1.5 million subscribers.

According to Kisin and Foster, the channel is “a free speech YouTube show and podcast” focused on “open, fact-based discussions of important and controversial issues.” Today, TRIGGERnometry operates as a small media company with over a dozen employees.

A Russian Greek Jew in London

Konstantin Kisin was born in Moscow in 1982, during the Soviet era. His parents were Orthodox Christians, while his grandfather was a secular Jew. He describes himself as Russian-Greek-Jewish. At just 18 and 20 years old, his parents were struggling students living in a cramped apartment in a brutalist high-rise in Moscow.

"One of my earliest memories," he writes in the book An Immigrant's Love Letter to the West (2022), «is when my mother caught me glugging milk from the carton with the excess pouring down my chest. This was a very real problem for the whole family because it was the only milk she could afford for the day, which meant the rest of the family would later go hungry. Such levels of poverty and scarcity were normal. Everybody was in the same ill-fated boat. This ensured that life was pretty miserable on a 24/7 basis and brought out the worst in human nature.»

In conversations and texts, Kisin often reflects on how his family, for three generations, faced persecution by Soviet and later Russian authorities. His great-grandfather spent 13 years in the GULag, enduring starvation and torture for criticizing Stalin. His grandfather fled to Britain after attracting the authorities’ attention for opposing the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in 1979. His father also faced difficulties with the authorities in the 1990s.

Growing up during the final years of the Soviet Union and the chaos following its collapse profoundly shaped Kisin’s political views and his perspective on the West. In a 2024 podcast, he summarized it as follows:

“I saw the collapse as a young boy. I saw the madness of the rise of modern Russia, which was an experience like no other. What happened was insane. In a very short period of time, my family went from being very poor when I was born, to being very rich, then to being very poor again, all in the space of ten years. In that five-year period when my family had money, they sent me to boarding school in the UK, and that’s how I ended up here.”

Konstantin Kisin arrived in Britain in 1994, aged eleven with a small suitcase of clothes and a few books, and without knowing a word of English. In An Immigrant's Love Letter to the West he writes:

«I can still remember the day I arrived in the UK with a wonderful sense of promise and expectation. Twenty-five years on, that feeling of freedom has never gone away. Nor has my adopted country ever disappointed me. Despite all the ups and downs, it has always been wonderful to me. That’s why I’ve written this love letter to Western civilisation. In short, Britain – and the West in general – saved me from a terrible fate. Now, as people seek to destroy it, I want to save it in return.»

How Trump won back America

Konstantin Kisin arrives exactly on time, accompanied by a representative from the Holberg Prize, who reminds me I have exactly 30 minutes for the interview. After nearly 20 years working within the celebrity-industrial media complex, I know there is often a wide gap between the public personas of media figures and the reality behind them. I have few illusions left.

I am therefore mentally prepared for the possibility that the real Konstantin Kisin might turn out to be nothing like the intelligent and jovial interviewer I’ve watched over the past six years engaging in hundreds of fascinating conversations with public intellectuals from across the political spectrum. This time, however, my professional cynicism proves wasted. Kisin is sharp, unpretentious, in good spirits, and eager to escape the rain and dive into our conversation.

We settle into the library of the Museum of Decorative Arts, perfectly sheltered from the relentless rain outside. With time short, I dive straight into what I’m most curious about: What does he think explains Donald Trump’s overwhelming victory in November? I ask because Kisin spent time in the United States before, during, and after the election, and, along the way, conducted over a dozen interviews with key American observers and commentators alongside his TRIGGERnometry partner, Francis Foster.

– I have always been skeptical of Trump and the Trump project. You have to be blind not to see that he is not a perfect man. But what I think is important for us Europeans to realize is that we do not really understand America. We speak the same language and therefore assume that we do, but where do we really get our information from? Mainly from two sources: The first is Hollywood, which provides a valid but very limited perspective on America seen from California. The second is from European journalists who are assigned to cover American politics.

Kisin believes that many European journalists have a limited understanding of the United States. They rely heavily on information from their American colleagues, who are predominantly based in Washington, D.C., New York, and Los Angeles—cities that are far from representative of the country as a whole. Occasionally, these journalists embark on trips to “see the country with their own eyes,” but the issue, Kisin argues, is that they tend to visit the same cities repeatedly.

In contrast, Kisin says he has taken the opposite approach in recent years, traveling extensively to places like Colorado, El Paso, Texas, New Orleans, Tulsa, Oklahoma, and many other less prominent areas.

– The reason why people voted for Donald Trump is directly connected to why I am in Norway this weekend to debate the state of the West- A majority of Americans voted for Trump because they reject what I call a “managed decline” of Western civilization. They do not accept the premise that we must become poorer and weaker. They see what Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping mean by their so-called multipolar world – it is essentially an attempt to topple the United States and the entire Western civilization from its pedestal. This is not what the Americans want. They refuse to become a second-class nation, he says.

Kisin reminds us that one of Trump's most important political slogans is "Drill, baby, drill."

– Energy is the basis of everything we produce. With cheap energy, the economy will automatically grow. In Europe, we are losing this battle. Climate change is a problem, we all have to acknowledge that, but we cannot impoverish our population or destroy our economies. We cannot deindustrialize just to satisfy little Greta. It is not going to work, it is not sensible economic policy, he says.

Another obvious explanation for why we Europeans struggle to understand the election of Trump, Kisin argues, lies in the way he speaks and acts.

– I understand that it may be difficult, even uncomfortable, for Britons and Norwegians to accept this, but Trump is more representative of the United States than people like to admit. Many Americans are like him – direct and often rude – and I actually appreciate that.

When he was in Los Angeles during the election, he recalls being struck by how overwhelmingly the victory was perceived.

– Many had warned me of possible riots if Trump won, but nothing happened. Even his fiercest opponents had to acknowledge that the American people had given him a mandate through every available democratic channel. It is time for us to accept that the most powerful country in the world is now led by this man, whether we like it or not, and that we must cooperate with him.

Not Just a Woke Backlash

When Trump won the 2016 election, many progressive activists and commentators framed his victory as a revolt by an aging, white, and racist electorate. According to this narrative, these voters feared the cultural and demographic shifts around them and chose Trump as a defender of a threatened white hegemony.

By 2024, however, this explanation is far less convincing. Trump’s victory came not just from his base but from significant losses by Harris and the Democrats among young and non-white voters—groups the party has long taken for granted. Among non-white voters, Trump achieved nearly a 20 percentage point swing in his favor compared to 2020. These shifts represent not minor adjustments but a seismic upheaval of the American political landscape, particularly among Hispanic and Asian communities.

I ask Kisin to what extent this election result can be seen as a rejection of the progressive, “woke” ideology that has shaped many of America’s liberal institutions over the past decade—a phenomenon he has extensively analyzed in conversations on TRIGGERnometry.

– I think that's part of the explanation, but that being said, this election was primarily about economics – although I don't see those things as disconnected. The political divide in America is much less about race and all that woke stuff, than it is about class.

Kisin argues that the emphasis on race and identity often obscures the deeper class divisions in American politics. This is particularly evident in the ease with which educated and economically privileged Americans detach themselves from the struggles of ordinary citizens. He highlights mass immigration—especially of low-skilled labor—as a prime example, noting how it disproportionately benefits the middle class while undermining the economic prospects of other groups.

– Mass immigration of people with low skills, especially illegal immigration, is good for the middle class, because suddenly they have a slave class doing work for less than minimum wage. Your avocados are cheaper, but is it beneficial for a black man without a college degree? I don't think so.

Kisin argues that America, more than any other Western nation, is fundamentally built on the concept of competitive meritocracy. He believes this is a key reason why progressive ideas encounter such strong resistance among ordinary Americans.

– Progressive ideas about how society should be structured – who should have opportunities and who should be denied them – are based on strategies that elevate some groups and hold others down. Ultimately, it is about a fundamental resistance to meritocratic principles, which leads to poor economic outcomes.

According to Kisin, the primary responsibility of any government is to ensure the safety and security of its citizens—an area where he argues many Western governments are increasingly falling short. The second most important responsibility, he contends, should be fostering economic prosperity, rather than prioritizing ideological agendas.

– The truth is that the United States has long drifted away from its fundamental ideals, and many see Trump as an opportunity to restore them. They want someone who will grow the country so they can get a job, put food on the table, send their kids to college, or whatever it may be. This also explains why more and more minorities are voting for Trump. This does not mean that they are right, or that Trump is right, but to many he appears to be a better choice than Kamala Harris – and that is the choice they have now made, he argues.

Kisin’s contact from the Holberg Prize suddenly emerges from the shadows, reminding us that my allotted 30 minutes are up. Kisin is displeased—he has more to say and wants to continue the conversation. I have no objections. The man from the prize slips back into the rain.

Authenticity is the currency of the internet

I continue the conversation by asking Kisin what the American election reveals about the state of traditional media. There is substantial evidence that, in this election, they have lost their historic role as gatekeepers of public discourse and political debate. In the aftermath, key outlets such as The Washington Post, CNN, and MSNBC find themselves in a crisis that is both journalistic and economic.

Viewership and readership have plummeted, and significant budget cuts are looming. Kisin argues that the crisis in traditional media is driven primarily by technological and economic shifts. He highlights how the cost of running a TV channel has plummeted—from millions of dollars to the price of a smartphone. Today, he notes, you can produce a TV show on an iPhone.

– In an article I wrote on Substack , I argued that although we in the new media like to portray ourselves as fearless truth seekers, the reality is more nuanced. The accuracy of many of the largest American podcasts often falls far short of the level of precision previously found in traditional media. Although the new platforms have made it possible to convey truths that traditional media have avoided for various reasons, it is a misconception to believe that new media automatically leads to better and more accurate information. What we are seeing is a democratization of mass communication that at the same time leads to a fragmentation of reality, and that is something that actually worries me, he says.

I agree that it is naive to place more trust in Joe Rogan than in The New York Times, and that editors and traditional journalistic standards of accountability are essential for maintaining a democratic public sphere. Yet, paradoxically, many people seem to trust Rogan more, largely because they perceive an authenticity in his style that they find lacking in traditional media.

Trump appeared on Rogan’s show for two and half hours before the November election without facing a single critical question. This absence of scrutiny might seem to discredit Rogan as a credible journalist, but it is precisely his unfiltered, conversational approach that resonates with his audience. Kisin fully agrees, emphasizing that authenticity is the key to understanding this paradox.

– Authenticity is the currency of the internet, and Joe is incredibly authentic. Authenticity is the most important thing in the entertainment industry. If you can fake it, you can do anything. So authenticity is very important. Joe, who I know as a friend, is exactly the same guy off stage as he is on screen. So yeah, that's something people respond to.

At the same time, he believes that traditional media often treats politicians like hunting prey – something to shoot and hang on the wall.

– It's about taking a scalp, rather than bringing out the real person, with both flaws and positive sides. The internet, at its best, allows for changing how these conversations are conducted.

Kisin reflects on the steep learning curve he has experienced over the seven years he and Foster have been running TRIGGERnometry. From the outset, the project was built around their genuine curiosity, asking guests questions they truly wanted answers to. He believes this approach has made the conversations more personal and direct.

– I want us to be a place for honest conversations about difficult topics – not just in the UK or Europe, but around the world. Overall, we are growing very quickly. The impact I want to have on the world is not about supporting one particular party or one particular president. I want us to impact the world by changing the way we think.

Kisin identifies a clear link between the way we discuss major societal challenges and the underlying issues currently confronting the West.

– I am here in Norway to participate in a debate about whether the West is in decline. I think it is undoubtedly the case, but it does not have to be that way. The decline of the West is not inevitable, it is self-inflicted. If more people realized that, we would be in a much better place. We have become too comfortable and too lazy. Instead of reaching for the stars, we put our hand in our neighbor's pocket and say: "Please take care of me." We should rather learn from what the Americans understand - that a great country only works if people feel a duty to take responsibility for themselves as far as they can. Not everyone will be able to do that, but that is where we have to reach. For me, it is very personal. I do not want to let down those who came before me. I wish more people understood how hard-won this freedom is, he says.

The Immigrant's Defense of the West

In November, Kemi Badenoch was elected leader of the British Conservative Party. She and Kisin share a significant commonality: both are immigrants—he from Russia, she from Nigeria—and both are passionate defenders of Western values and institutions. I ask Kisin whether, in today’s world, it takes being an immigrant to fully appreciate the greatness of Western values and institutions.

– I don’t think you have to be an immigrant to see it, but I think it helps. Being an immigrant helps because I have a deep connection to parts of the world where people don’t live in the freedom and comfort that we take for granted in Western Europe. People often ask me: “What do you do if your kids hate the West?” And I always answer: Travel. Don’t try to convince them of anything. Just take them to Cambodia, somewhere in Africa, or to a country in Eastern Europe that’s struggling, and show them how people live. Don’t say anything. Just let them experience it.

Kisin often jokes that the reason he can address these topics in a way many others cannot is because he has what he calls “immigrant privilege.”

– The truth is that some things are much easier to say if you can defend yourself by saying you are not white, an immigrant, or a woman – which is in direct opposition to the ideals of the Enlightenment and the pursuit of truth. We need to be able to discuss ideas without having to rely on these identity categories.

He argues that identity categories are frequently used to restrict who is deemed eligible to participate in certain discussions—a practice he considers both destructive and counterproductive.

– Especially on the left, you see this idea that you can't have an opinion because you're not a woman, or because you're not black. I think it's hopeless that it's become like this.

– We must insist on everyone's right to express themselves and have an opinion, regardless of background. If it is immigrants and minorities who have to start that process, I have always felt an extra responsibility to contribute.

What Ukraine needs now

As a Russian with close family ties to Ukraine—both his mother and mother-in-law are Ukrainian—Konstantin Kisin has an intimate understanding of both the historical context and the consequences of the ongoing war. I ask him how he envisions the situation unfolding once Donald Trump is inaugurated as president.

– I am a strong supporter of Ukraine and actively involved in advocacy work, but I find it incredible that no one is talking about the possibility that there could be coordinated cooperation between Biden and Trump regarding Ukraine – but maybe that is just my conspiracy theory. There are good reasons why this is not discussed. The right hates the left, and the left hates the right, so neither of them wants to imagine that there could be cooperation across ideological lines.

He suspects that Joe Biden's increased support for Ukraine may indicate that there may be some kind of agreement with Donald Trump on how to handle the situation.

– I see it as a classic “good guy, bad guy” routine. When Trump takes office in January, he can say to Vladimir Putin: “Listen, this is what Biden did. I can end this for you.” I suspect Donald Trump will come in and find some kind of deal. The West's handling of the war in Ukraine has damaged the country - despite all the promises of support, Kisin believes.

– Ukraine has fought the war based on promises from the West that they would be given everything they needed to win, but these promises were never fulfilled. A deal is therefore inevitable. The question is how such a deal will be received – and what consequences it will have for everyone involved.

According to Kisin, the main challenge lies in the lack of a clearly defined concept of “victory.” While Ukraine continues its fight on the ground, Western leaders have failed to articulate a realistic and unified goal for the conflict. Without a shared understanding of what victory entails, any agreement risks facing criticism, regardless of its substance. This ambiguity, Kisin argues, creates space for political maneuvering, particularly by Trump’s critics.

– When the deal comes, the left will of course accuse Trump of failing Ukraine. It doesn’t matter what the deal actually entails, because the left has never defined what victory in Ukraine actually means. They have never said what a victory should look like. If you ask anyone on the left what victory for Ukraine was at the beginning of the conflict, they wouldn’t be able to answer.

For Kisin, victory for Ukraine means that they fight back, push the Russians back as far as possible, and then make a deal.

– Such an agreement would involve giving up territory in exchange for long-term security. This could mean NATO membership – although that doesn’t seem to be happening now – or some kind of peacekeeping force, a demilitarized zone like in Korea, or something similar. I hope that’s what will eventually happen.

What will Norway be like in 30 years?

Kisin has been generous with his time, and I conclude by asking him what message he has for Norwegians. What does he believe we, as a nation, should reflect on more deeply?

– The future!, he answers spontaneously.

– We don’t think about the future enough. We live in a kind of eternal present without reflecting on it. Norway is in a special position. How will Norway continue to be a successful and prosperous nation in 30 years? What do you have to do now to make that happen? Look around the region: What are other countries doing right, and what have they done wrong? Do you want to imitate the Swedish immigration policy? You should avoid making the same mistakes they have made in Sweden, and that we have made elsewhere in Europe. My message to Norwegians is: Look where it has led Europe. Look what it has led to in parts of the United States. For God’s sake, don’t go down the same road.