I was a panellist on the Moral Maze last night - I do little media these days as it usually feels like a waste of time but the Moral Maze is an example of genuine debate and discussion.
I found the last speaker to be a classic example of a thinker living his whole life consumed in an ideology and absolutely unable or unwilling to step into the real world. These people are always extremely defensive and angry when someone tries to bring them toward real people, real experiences, facts and real life. They get angry and start attacking the person in front of them. Exactly like the Trans Activists. In fact to be honest I am sick and tired of academics and politicians name calling people who aren’t from the ‘chattering classes’. Calling them racist for example. There is so much time wasted trying to prove how ‘clever’ they are. Enough!
the binariness of the framing about immigration is so intellectually bankrupt. At one point Ash said something about whether Goodwin thought migration was good or bad. What?? Are taxes good or bad? Is rain good or bad? the discussion, excuse me, is about volume, rate, management etc just as KK was making clear to that nutcase at the end. SMH. xx
I like how the last guy framed KK asking the questions as the problem. How typical.
At the same time, I think it's really important to differentiate between genetic race and cultural race. People are well and truly moving beyond genetic race... but cultural race, in the forms of different values and ways of life are the real source of anxiety. Europe/UK are committing cultural suicide by trying to bring in mass numbers of people with radically different views of culture and do not want to become culturally European/British. The idea of "white" people being scared of replacement is really a question of "British" people (of all genetic races and all colors) being scared of being replaced by culturally Islamic people. British people want Britain to stay culturally British, and it's not racist to say so.
Many people in Islamic countries are fighting to keep Western cultural influence out of their countries, to keep their culture Islamic in the ways they prefer. Do we say they are racist for that?
Out of the almost-an-hour, there were as usual five or six minutes worth listening to. I'm afraid I've found the Moral Maze a waste of time for some years, so I normally ignore it now, as you just get people who don't want to listen, want to dig themselves in to their entrenched holes, and go round in circles. On the one hand, of course you can find decent Muslims for a programme like this, there are plenty of them, but that doesn't make statistics or facts go away. Some serious work surely needs to be done, with faith leaders and mosques, to get "social integration" valued above forced marriage and sharia law and blasphemy, in line with classical "Western" values of freedom of speech and respect for individuals - especially young and female ones.
Yes there was very little discussion of the difference of values around equality and respect of women and girls and their own freedoms and status in our society and the need to protect those rights
Thanks for flagging this up. I really appreciated your input with the last speaker. You really exposed him by confronting him with the logic of his own world view.
I have to say the common refrain when people try and diminish the crimes and terrorist acts we have seen from our immigrant and immigrant descended population - “but White British people commit horrible crimes too” is frustratingly poorly combatted.
The answer can always be “what policy decision could have stopped a Lucy Letby?” Vs “what policy decision could have stopped Lee Rigbys killers?”
The simple fact is all our Islamic terrorism, grooming gangs, Taylor Swift dance party stabbings could have been prevented by an easy to identify act - not letting people come and live here who we didn’t actively seek out and desire to be here.
The gentleman refused to answer KK’s very pertinent questions. I was glad to have access to this discussion, but unfortunately, it was mostly “we don’t really have an immigration problem,” “it’s so complicated we don’t have the answers to the problem,” or “white racist British are the problem.” Same thing i hear over and over again.
The whole conversation seems stuck in sub-undergraduate, even bodysnatcher point-and-shriek mode. We need grownups to address it through clear eyes without confusing the thuggery for the actual underlying issue which is real and legitimate. The longer the media and our finger-wagging betters keep calling all relevant concern racist and fascist, the worse the cultural division and the worse this whole mess is going to get. Funny how those who aim to 'fix' so many issues are those who exacerbate them and also how, as we've been predicting for years, when conversation gets stifled the inevitable next stop on the line is violence. Here we are. Stop stopping and censoring the speech if you want to stop the actual bloodletting. Time to acknowledge that 'speech is violence' is a trash BS idea so we can put it in the trash where it belongs. Violence is violence. Want to stop it? Speak. Freely. And listen, openly. It requires patience and generosity but not open veins and broken windows, at least.
Mrs Ash's desperate attempts to portray herself as a victim … just embarrassing.
Typical for her and for all others (except of course Matt Goodwin and KK) luxury belief class… only in the way of addressing the real problems of 1 Million illegal immigrants
Interesting and frustrating at the same time. My experience is that when you have a group of people with opposing views together to talk about something (even things not half as complex or serious as this) everyone comes with the (understandable) attitude that they need to make sure they get their point across. It's only after everyone feels that they've stated their position and had it understood that they can start really listening and start being open to maybe having their views shifted.
I would like to listen to something like this after everyone has been forced to spend enough time together that they're not quite so defensive of their own position. (Not realistic I know)
In the United States experiment it takes 3 generations to fully. assimilate. And by that generally agree to speak the prevailing language and usually accepted by the general community. At that point most call themselves Americans. Some go home when they really cannot get used to the prevailing culture. The US used to be more libertarian in there views about immigration, unless it personally affected them negatively is some way.
I found the last speaker to be a classic example of a thinker living his whole life consumed in an ideology and absolutely unable or unwilling to step into the real world. These people are always extremely defensive and angry when someone tries to bring them toward real people, real experiences, facts and real life. They get angry and start attacking the person in front of them. Exactly like the Trans Activists. In fact to be honest I am sick and tired of academics and politicians name calling people who aren’t from the ‘chattering classes’. Calling them racist for example. There is so much time wasted trying to prove how ‘clever’ they are. Enough!
the binariness of the framing about immigration is so intellectually bankrupt. At one point Ash said something about whether Goodwin thought migration was good or bad. What?? Are taxes good or bad? Is rain good or bad? the discussion, excuse me, is about volume, rate, management etc just as KK was making clear to that nutcase at the end. SMH. xx
She also was a weasel, just like the Irishman. So condescending and rude.
Excellent point.
Dare I say it was a "Good" point and not a "Bad" point" :-)
Why thank you. You make me feel “good.”
I like how the last guy framed KK asking the questions as the problem. How typical.
At the same time, I think it's really important to differentiate between genetic race and cultural race. People are well and truly moving beyond genetic race... but cultural race, in the forms of different values and ways of life are the real source of anxiety. Europe/UK are committing cultural suicide by trying to bring in mass numbers of people with radically different views of culture and do not want to become culturally European/British. The idea of "white" people being scared of replacement is really a question of "British" people (of all genetic races and all colors) being scared of being replaced by culturally Islamic people. British people want Britain to stay culturally British, and it's not racist to say so.
Many people in Islamic countries are fighting to keep Western cultural influence out of their countries, to keep their culture Islamic in the ways they prefer. Do we say they are racist for that?
Out of the almost-an-hour, there were as usual five or six minutes worth listening to. I'm afraid I've found the Moral Maze a waste of time for some years, so I normally ignore it now, as you just get people who don't want to listen, want to dig themselves in to their entrenched holes, and go round in circles. On the one hand, of course you can find decent Muslims for a programme like this, there are plenty of them, but that doesn't make statistics or facts go away. Some serious work surely needs to be done, with faith leaders and mosques, to get "social integration" valued above forced marriage and sharia law and blasphemy, in line with classical "Western" values of freedom of speech and respect for individuals - especially young and female ones.
Yes there was very little discussion of the difference of values around equality and respect of women and girls and their own freedoms and status in our society and the need to protect those rights
Thanks for flagging this up. I really appreciated your input with the last speaker. You really exposed him by confronting him with the logic of his own world view.
I have to say the common refrain when people try and diminish the crimes and terrorist acts we have seen from our immigrant and immigrant descended population - “but White British people commit horrible crimes too” is frustratingly poorly combatted.
The answer can always be “what policy decision could have stopped a Lucy Letby?” Vs “what policy decision could have stopped Lee Rigbys killers?”
The simple fact is all our Islamic terrorism, grooming gangs, Taylor Swift dance party stabbings could have been prevented by an easy to identify act - not letting people come and live here who we didn’t actively seek out and desire to be here.
Four hearts if I could.
The gentleman refused to answer KK’s very pertinent questions. I was glad to have access to this discussion, but unfortunately, it was mostly “we don’t really have an immigration problem,” “it’s so complicated we don’t have the answers to the problem,” or “white racist British are the problem.” Same thing i hear over and over again.
That Irish 'doctor' was the slipperiest of weasels. A wanker, in fact.
Not to mention, a simp.
The whole conversation seems stuck in sub-undergraduate, even bodysnatcher point-and-shriek mode. We need grownups to address it through clear eyes without confusing the thuggery for the actual underlying issue which is real and legitimate. The longer the media and our finger-wagging betters keep calling all relevant concern racist and fascist, the worse the cultural division and the worse this whole mess is going to get. Funny how those who aim to 'fix' so many issues are those who exacerbate them and also how, as we've been predicting for years, when conversation gets stifled the inevitable next stop on the line is violence. Here we are. Stop stopping and censoring the speech if you want to stop the actual bloodletting. Time to acknowledge that 'speech is violence' is a trash BS idea so we can put it in the trash where it belongs. Violence is violence. Want to stop it? Speak. Freely. And listen, openly. It requires patience and generosity but not open veins and broken windows, at least.
It's hard to get the politicians and the media to have honest conversations with us when it might cost them their grip on power and wealth.
Mrs Ash's desperate attempts to portray herself as a victim … just embarrassing.
Typical for her and for all others (except of course Matt Goodwin and KK) luxury belief class… only in the way of addressing the real problems of 1 Million illegal immigrants
Never, ever a waste of my time. Thank you for sharing! I agree with you all the time so far.
I agree! This what is so needed right now. "Far" right and the "Far" left need to start listening to each other.
Sorry. I find these people are so predictable. I never watch MSM. Except Sky after Dark in Australia.
Interesting and frustrating at the same time. My experience is that when you have a group of people with opposing views together to talk about something (even things not half as complex or serious as this) everyone comes with the (understandable) attitude that they need to make sure they get their point across. It's only after everyone feels that they've stated their position and had it understood that they can start really listening and start being open to maybe having their views shifted.
I would like to listen to something like this after everyone has been forced to spend enough time together that they're not quite so defensive of their own position. (Not realistic I know)
In the United States experiment it takes 3 generations to fully. assimilate. And by that generally agree to speak the prevailing language and usually accepted by the general community. At that point most call themselves Americans. Some go home when they really cannot get used to the prevailing culture. The US used to be more libertarian in there views about immigration, unless it personally affected them negatively is some way.